All Comments on 'Revelations and Revolutions'

I would really like to know what caused the hate of Carrie.

I suspected sometime during the story that William feeded her a lie of John cheating on her to get into her panties.

Well written as expected.

But the mystery remains unresolved.

Why ?

Most likely explanation would be that William wanted to have an affair with Carrie and made her think John was sleeping with other women. Who would know better than the "best friend"? He would have poisoned her against her husband and instead of confronting him she fell into William's plan and had a long-term affair. Carrie was stupid to believe the predator and it cost her everything.

Well written. It does leave a big hole regarding the why. I hope you consider a sequel from the wife’s perspective and fill in the blanks.

non-erotic

What started off as a good tale really went off the rails in the counseling session. The entire monologue type conversation he had with the therapist just felt off. He had a right to be upset but the conversation just didn't resonate. During the discussion he talks to the therapist like she's a child, and then outright tries to get up and leave like an upset toddler.

Also, how in the world does his daughter and Anita get married, and then later on they meet two guys and get married again? An editor would help here. Thanks for sharing.

I wanted to know why. It left a big hole in the story.

Agree with rnebular. Had a good start but halfway through it went off the road. Confusing monolog and a lot of nonsense at the counselor's office.

So close to 5*. Then this

"What spurred her hatred for me will forever be a mystery relegated to the past as she offered no explanation"

What it actually shows is lack of imagination and depth of understanding on the part of the author.

3*

Too many parts to this story (daughter, other couple's son, rooming house)

marital counseling session was odd... guy threatens to leave the room then tells the doctor she's earned his respect... she didn't do anything to earn it.

the private hour before the marital counseling session? seemed pointless

The wife not mentioning the reason for her attitude and cheating is an arbitrary and unnecessary story gimmick or the author didn't have a good reason for her attitude,

This was a 4.5 rounded up. The mystery of “why” remains, which I imagine is true in some divorces. I felt that somewhere on page3, the story lost something. Anne first seems like she is alone in the world, but by the end parents emerge and her dad and the MC are suddenly friends?

Good author, decent story, but too much wandering especially as the story reached its conclusion.

Yeah, it could have been tighter here and there, but I still liked it.

That really is the definition of a happy ending. You can't help everybody, but he tried in an honorable way.

Decent story but leaving out what caused Carrie to go off the deep end left your story wanting.

Very good but I question some of his closing thoughts. Healed? Mostly. I think that because he still wondered what he’d done to deserve Carrie’s hurtful treatment. Carrie wouldn’t allow him closure and never sincerely apologized.

Pretty good.

I wanted to like it more.

I found his conversations to almost feel pretentious, as if he was trying to use all his biggest big boy words. Who talks like that? It read like a senior in high school's descriptive writing exercise, required to include all of this years flounciest vocabulary words.

I appreciate your efforts, though.

Meh. A lot of navel gazing. Some editing issues. The rant in the counselors office was just obnoxious

Very nice well constructed tale. Enjoyed it immensely.

5 stars

So, I made it through most of page two. This dialog and narrative is repetitive, as well as over-described and -explained, and this emphasizes the repetitiveness.

On another note, I truly want to know, what is the value, the philosophical import, the noble virtue, of not telling people about your cheating spouse? ... as our hero refuses to tell his mother-in-law late in page two?

You might consider establishing a relationship with an editor. You can generate a good story, and you have a good facility with words, but someone who helps you with "less is more" and a few actual mistakes would be a real asset.

Thanks for your work

Too long

This was a Disney story for dudes. The amazing husband gets the hot woman, finds fortune and fame and the evil ex wife gets the shaft from the universe.

boring!

Been divorced and it sucks. Even though it was for the best, it was expensive, time consuming and the law is tilted in favor of the wife.

Tell me that story. Tell me he overcame the legal obstacles, that he kept his dignity and even though he was broke, it was better than being in a loveless marriage.

Hell, you didn’t even need to incorporate adultery, it would have been fantastic if it didn’t include non existent sex

John the husband was too wordy. He couldn't open his mouth without launching some grand speech that seemed read from a script. It just didn't seem like a natural way of speaking. I almost sympathized with his wife who after years of listening to him , fried her brain, and she started being mean to him cause he wouldn't shut up. Otherwise it was OK. Thanx!

Loklie

Tropey, and the dialogue is godawful. No one actually talks like this.

Too many plot holes and no self respecting marine would talk like the mc did. Please do more research on dialogue in the future.

A lot of commenters said that the story missed something because we were never told why Carrie had the affair, but that was a big part of the point: it was written in the first person, and John never knew himself. Perhaps the reason Carrie never told John is that she didn't know herself.

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A lot of readers will not be happy with this explanation, but a lot of affairs start with nothing more than attraction, or just an 'I want to,' or a situation arose unexpectedly, or something just as meaningless. Like the typical LW line, "It was just sex," doesn't make any sense to most LW readers, sometimes it really is just sex. Sometimes there really is no greater or deeper meaning.

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Let's face it: there aren't many good, rational, logical reasons for an affair, and if people were always reasonable and rational, no one would ever have an affair; they're too messy and unpredictable, and if someone really wants to trade in his spouse, it's a lot easier to do it before an affair than after.

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Of course, that would mean divorcing spouse #1 before you ever sealed the deal with prospective spouse #2, and things might not go quite as planned!

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The part about John getting fed up and deciding to leave Carrie before he found out about the affair was a new twist; I appreciated that one.

So we never get to learn why Carrie behaved that way? AND she gets a happy ending to boot?! I enjoy your work, but that's very disappointing.

The dialogs were beyond silly. John's a Marine? First story where a Marine is portrayed as a horrible wimp. Not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

Although not all reasons for an attitude like the Carrie character isn't always made known in a real life family separation/divorce (i.e. can speak of this from personal experience) in a read like this a little more conjecture on what it could have been from John's perspective might have helped a bit. As I read this though it did seemed like there was a hole at the end of the story with the reason for not wanting the divorce on Carrie's part but still seeing Bill. One could conjecture she was playing both sides to ensure she had someone to be with (i.e. share the bills and bed) but it wasn't explored and I think that alone caused the comments (the 2 so far) about missing the why.

Without a 'why' the story collapses and that 'i wouldnt wish it on' the bastard who caused all the trouble is just nonsensical, what world do you live in?

The people who suggest that W told Carrie John was cheating are delusional. If that were the case she had plenty of opportunity to blurt it out and would have at some point. Her steadfast refusal to discuss it with John is odd.

Two things bug me. First is that the daughter never finds out from mom why she did what she did? I mean you would think she would find out and be able to tell her dad. Second is how on earth does carrie find a guy to marry? I mean does the new husband NOT know about the two marriages? Some dumb ass guy is willing to marry a cheater and that cheater is not even wealthy? The guy must be a loser himself with low self esteem so he figures any woman is better than no woman at all?

That got WAY too confusing at the end. Starting with no real info or hint as to why Carrie had an affair and basically went full on bitch.

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And the MC being so mellow towards tne bitch and her lover? Nah…..

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3 ***

3 stars. Interesting story line. But, it was exceedingly tedious and extremely too long. The inclusion of the MC's military service was superfluous and added nothing to the story. Especially since there was no effort to explain the ex-wife reasons or thought processes.

The sentence "Erin and Anita were roommates until they married" reads as if they were lesbians. Took me a minute to figure it out.

If William convinced her her husband was cheating in order to get in her pants she'd for sure throw that up when the showdown began. No way she's gonna be the bad guy to family and friends for doing what she thinks he did.

No tags = automatic negative feedback

Story was okay but at times bordered on purple prose. Author too often uses eight words when he could use four. In short stories you should be looking for ways to remove words, not add unnecessary words.

Wow, that was good.

'....building to a cadenza'? The MC is an over-talker, and OP over-explains everything. Every character is a caricature, either all good or all bad. Nobody is ever conflicted, nobody is ever an ordinary anything. It's easy to navigate a black-and-white world where the bad guys wear black hats, lie, cheat, and steal and conveniently fall right into line with the good guys' well-laid plans. Every good guy is a Marine with an impressive record, and a combat resume worthy of Lou Diamond or Louie Puller; nope, no truck mechanics, radiomen, armorers, or machine-gunners in this crowd. Moreover, they're all solid, green-side-out Marines, with nary a reference to The Crotch or Uncle Sam's Miscreant Children, even as a snarky aside.

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The revelation scene at the coffee shop moved too quickly, and was uneven emotionally, with MC sounding like a cross between a therapist and a lecturer. Even with some decent action beats and emotives, it felt dry and flat. It was like, "Oh, so that's why she's been so evil. Makes sense, now." Then, he moves on.

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This story badly needed an editor. Much of the dialogue is superfluous. When retelling something already covered before, it doesn't need to be repeated because the story is for the reader and not for the character who is hearing what the reader has already read. OP did a credible job with the financials; in most of these trope-rich stories, the same irrelevant crap is repeated pro-forma, but here, OP was creative, authentic, and unique.

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Tension and conflict are the well-oiled bearings upon which dramatic fiction turn. OP created tension, but it was predictable and without the element of surprise, which takes away from the suspense that makes reading enjoyable. The same with conflict. It all flows neatly into a channel we can see from the military crest of the most distant hill in this story. Again, that's because all the characters are homogenous, unconflicted, and either all good or all bad.

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It's a good story, but we've read it a thousand times on here. Surprise us. Break a convention or two or twelve. Edit!

Lost interest after the first page. Entirely too grandiose with every conversation and interaction. Tone it down.

Why do cheaters cheat? They cheat because they can. Because they value getting their sexual kicks more than they value fidelity to you. That’s it.

Gave up on page 2, seems a 5 page stort that should of been a 2 page at the most. Just full of nothing!

The main character comes off as overbearing, pedantic, and an all-around insufferable jerk. As someone mentioned, he spoke to the therapist like she was a child. Several of the scenes felt "off" like that. During the coffee-shop scene with Erin, he couldn't shut up. Instead of telling her that he was reasonably upset that she hid her mother's cheating, he came off as a larger-than-life but suffering soul. The characters are more like a children's cartoon in that the horribly imperfect villains all wear long frock coats, have beady eyes, and laugh manically, while the good guys are long-suffering noble savage types who live a clean monastic life (unless they're getting drunk at a one-man pity party). Someone mentioned using an editor, which is probably a good idea. Pick a mean one--they're the best.

3 stars and the legal plus therapy portions of this story ruined it as far as I am concerned. You would be well advised to limit those two items to just a few sentences in future stories.

There also needed to be a tangible reason why she went off the rails - anything - even menopause, hormone imbalance, or a treatable medical/mental condition.

Hate to complain about a story that seems too long, as we usually complain that 'the story needs an ending or is too abrupt', but this one was too wordy. The writer got too involved with what was being written, and the different ways to write it, and ignored what the readers were going to read.

A disappointing story from a decent writer. It read asxa checklist of things that took place, without a reason to emotionally invest as a reader.

The wussy character development of this guy didn't comport with the history as a badass marine sniper the author chose to give him. All we seemed to get was whining and sniveling about how fair he needed to be. The bullshit about being considerate toward the cheating whore out of deference to the daughter was asinine. The daughter is an adult and no part of the equation. Overall, a really stupid story featuring a stupid, unsympathetic lead character.

Just a jumbled mess of wayward stories trying to come together, which failed miserably.

Very good 5

I don't think that it's wise or even ethical for the therapist to make a solo appointment with one of the spouses, the wife, before the common sessions even started. At the very least she would have had to ask the mc's approval beforehand.

In the shoes of the mc, after hearing about the earlier solo session of his wife, I would have left immediately.

Way too much unneeded detail and melodrama. People simply don’t talk like this- the dialogue was stilted, overly dramatic and unrealistic.

Terrible character development. Yes, I did read all the way to the end.

Stupid soap opera

2starrs

I liked the story. I did read the comments. Just because somebody has been in the military does NOT make them a hardass. Usually it makes them decisive especially if they rose to any real level of responsibility. (And to stave off some, I am NOT saying going into armed conflict is not a real level of responsibility. I mean rank.)

The MC at times acted slowly and carefully. I was surprised at times at some of his actions, BUT he was consistent. Overall, VERY nicely done.

Thanks PKenny! Good story and well done!

one thing: Dr. Fuller. The good doctor, knowing that she would be counseling both parties in their marriage created a conflict of interest in solo-counseling the wife and then saying that she could NOT disclose what was said. I liked that the MC got pissed off at this and truth be told, he should have been pissed and more. He should have called her out for the conflict and reported her to her board for the violation. There was no way that he could be treated fairly when Fuller and his wife had secrets relevant to his marriage. Ah well, maybe in some state it is possible.

Again, thank you for the well-done tale.

well told story. no nitpicking here

3 stars. It wasn't a garbage RAAC, and the man wasn't a complete wuss like in most LW stories and even re-married and remained happy, so it's not 1 star. And the cheating spouses didn't get ALL their way. So, it was worth between 3 and 4 stars.

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But two things spoiled the story a lot, resulting in just 3 stars. First, was the thing with the daughter in the beginning. Sorry, complete BS. Yes she should have taken sides, and told her father IMMEDIATELY. No it's not somehow his fault or his job to make sure she's "not in the middle". She's bloody 23 or more, not 7 or even 10 years old, a grown-ass adult. There was a clear villain and a clear victim and it was her responsibility to help the victim and shun the villain. Not to stick her stupid head in the sand and give her father cold shoulder he didn't deserve, and lie to him for months. She's not as bad as some LW child characters who out and out take the cheater's side 100%. But she's also not a good person like - in the same story - JoAnn's son Jon. HIS behavior was exemplary and honorable. He immediately wanted to tell his mom the moment he found out; he offered his mom moral support, emotional support, even had her stay with him, cut ties off with the cheater FULLY and expressed disgust. The stupid daughter of MC did NONE of those things. Selfish bitch.

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Second, was the softness towards the cheating skanky bitch. After all she had put him through, for some mind-damaged reason, MC decided to be nice, ON TOP of giving her his all all his life and half his assets in divorce, he decided to pay for her therapy. WHY??? Forgiving her in his mind, I can buy (better for his own mental health). Doing anything nice for her? Despicable. You're rewarding evil and treachery.

The story was good , but perhaps take a note from Hemingway, less is more. The tale was very wordy

Thanks for writing

I thought it was a well rounded story put together in a fine manner. Thanks for your writing.

Some of the dialog between the husband and wife was very, very stilted…..overly proper.

A perfectly so so story. Unfortunately any real emotional content was missing due to the author choosing to have John & Carrie have no real interaction or dialogue during the story.

A monologue about how John feels ends up leaving this feeling like half a story.

Too verbose

Don't let the door hit you on the butt on your way out!

5

The story was well written but surely the main issues were why did she and his best friend do this? How did it start? Why did she begin to treat him like shit? Why did she fight the divorce after the way she behaved? What did she feel about the way she treated her "best friend"? She wanted counseling but never apologized or pleaded to be forgiven - why?

So, for me there were too many issues ignored for this to be a high score story but 3 for the standard of writing.

when an Incel tries to write dialogue, with zero concept of how functional humans talk to each other. Perhaps a version of how pathetic erotica could be, if some robot wrote all the dialogue?

"What spurred her hatred for me will forever be a mystery relegated to the past as she offered no explanation nor did I ask for one."

Might have been his tendency to start spewing essays whenever he opened his mouth.

No explanation for her behavior. The MC doesn't even seem curious. Which is curious. Might have been some failing on his part, eh? And he doesn't want to know? Also, his indifference to her came well too soon. D

"I'd move heaven and earth to find the name of the man who deliberately and coldly ruined my marriage." - No need, just ask their daughter.

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"She said it was a mistake." - A "mistake" could cover a one-night stand. If you wanted to be generous, it could even cover the entire affair! But how is all the abuse a mistake?

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His dialog is like monologues,even his text!

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Erin has a lot of nerve! She wouldn't get involved when she discovered her mother cheating, NOW she wants to get involved?

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Carrie wants to reconcile so bad, yet she's still seeing her guy and taking Lover Boy to their home? What if John comes home?

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Since it doesn't seem that Carrie's been hiding her abuse, hasn't JoAnn been witness to it?

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"I'm unable to discuss what she disclosed ethically due to doctor patient confidentiality and legally under HIPPA. So, I'd like to hear your thoughts and goals for your marriage." - So she can hear his side, but he can't hear hers?

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"There has been no attempt at meaningful communication for years despite my multiple attempts to establish a dialog that continually fell on deaf ears." - Yes, it's strange how these wives who refuse to communicate, suddenly want to talk when the husbands file for divorce.

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"I later found out from my P.I. that it had been going on for the past three years running" - Maybe I missed it, but I thought it was nine months.

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Why do 90% of LW counselors think that their job is to "save" the marriage, rather than determine IF it can be saved, then proceeding accordingly.

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Why does William, the cheating husband only get 30% of the assets, but Carrie, the cheating wife, still gets 50%? Especially where cheating isn't supposed to factor in the divorce settlements!

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Carrie "became quite disillusioned and bitter toward men and relationships?" - Like she didn't have anything to do with those relationships failing?

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Of COURSE he finds a new, gorgeous honey!

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@ScorpioJJ, I basically agree, but wouldn't a wife wonder when the "best friend" came onto her that maybe he had an ulterior motive, and his story shouldn't be trusted?

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@rnebular, I don't believe that the girls got married. I think you made a similar mistake as an Anonymous. "They were roommates until they got married." Anon assumed married to each other, so lesbians! You thought an arlier marriage. They were roommates until they married the brothers.

Yet another sad, spineless husband that won’t stand up for himself, allowing himself to be a doormat to a hostile wife. She likely moved to disrespect as she likely threw her affair in the MC’s face and he was too clueless to notice. Leaving out the reason behind the disrespect was lazy, and the one sided discussion with the therapist was laughable at best. It read like your intention was to show how the MC has become a man again, but read more like a comedic interlude. Even came complete with a new love interest for the MC in the end, and a very cliche sorrowful ex…blah so boring and predictable.

Thank you. Good story and written very well.

The tire squealing incident at the beginning was way over the top description. It sounded Jr. highish. Couldn't read the rest for fear of similar composition.

Trying hard to get through this story but the dialogue is so formal it makes it hard to be believable. Some grammar errors are taking away from the flow of story to. ‘It was building to a credenza’ instead of a crescendo made me stop and laugh. I’ll keep going because it’s caught my interest

This author needs to put down his thesaurus and back off his Grammarly account a bit. Memo to author, real people under extremely pressure filled situations don’t speak to each other in 4 and 5 syllable words. If you’re exercising your voluminous vocabulary that’s all well and good, but it really is taking away from your story.

Sorry, couldn’t make it passed page 2. 2*

The story largely stayed center of the road and thus ended up being fairly blah and earning a rating of 3.

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No lawyer is going to tell a husband to pay off the wife's car and remove his name from the title unless he has a comparable value vehicle with a comparable loan and the wife agrees to remove her name from it. The way he did it, her lawyer will (successfully) argue that the husband has excluded it from community property by his actions and will not count against her share of the assets.

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The therapist scene was sad. It was neither realistic nor was it satisfying. The therapist gave him multiple openings to have her license revoked and he let it slide. He kind of stood up for himself, but only for a moment before caving like a house of cards in a tornado.

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When you picked up speed at the end, you got even more careless with your writing. When you wrote "Erin invited Anita to move in with her and they were roommates until they eventually married. I lucked out and now I had two daughters to spoil and pamper." it sure sounded like they had married each other. It was thus confusing when several paragraphs later they started dating a couple of guys. I mean, I sure didn't see any prior hints that they were lesbians who swung straight...

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I could go on, but there is just too much to cover.

Not a bad story, and it was carefully crafted. To its detriment, it was crafted like a boorish monologue one often hears on NPR-a real yawner.

Author deserves credit for his attempt, and I wish him well, as I believe he has a fertile mind.

If he could render his thoughts in a much less ponderous fashion, success will be his.

I think it is generally a good story. I give it a 4, with the potential for a part 2 from the wife's perspective and closure.

A well qualified therapist would not agree to the dual individual/family role presented here. After one or more meetings with all involved parties, a family therapist may choose to meet with each member of the family unit one on one. They do so, however, within their mission to serve the best interests of all members of the family unit, not in the role of an individual therapist. A family therapist cannot appropriately have a higher degree of responsibility to one member of the family compared to the other members. That would be unethical and destructive.

however, I'm unable to discuss what she disclosed ethically due to doctor patient confidentiality and legally under HIPPA.

Sure she could, Carrie just has to give her permission to share the info.

A therapist, ethically should not see parts of a couple individually and then for couple therapy unless the individual sessions were part of a plan made together with the therapist. The therapist seeing Carrie as an individual before the couples therapy started is a big no no.

The entire last page was unnecessary. It felt like you introduced 50 new characters.

Far too many adjectives! why use one descriptor when 5 are handy?

A good story that became a mediocre story when you waffled lyrically about what happened to everybody but failed to explain WHY the bitch got so bitchy.

No wonder she was rooting somebody else. She could no longer put with listening to his pedantic bullshit. Over cliched and very over written.

ReedRichardsabout 12 hours ago

Perhaps the reason Carrie never told John is that she didn't know herself.

That is bullshit, every cheater knows why it happened. It is clearly a choice.

sometimes it really is just sex. Sometimes there really is no greater or deeper meaning. Sometimes there really is no greater or deeper meaning.

That is bullshit too! If it didn't mean anything why would it continue, that is where it should stop. And never get to anything else!

The 2 points after these two don't make sense at all. They just cancel one another out.

The only thing that isn't bullshit is the part about a new twist.

An interesting story. You obviously enjoy writing, but you should try and make your direct speech more natural. Real people just don't talk Mike that.

And PLEASE ask someone to read through your story before you publish it. There are so many mistakes that are unforgivable, I even wondered if English was your native tongue.

It was going well until the macho marines BS. Sorry, just switched off after that.

Still no tags at all ? No good !

Wonderful story, 10 stars! Bill and Carrie should have been severely dealt with, but things turned out OK for John & Becky, with all the kids and grandkids!

The ending to the story was empty and devoid of any drama or emotion. Too many elements of the story were skipped over leaving the story bland and neutered. Carrie's explanation for why she went sideways should have been

one of the emotional peaks of the yarn along with why John's best friend betrayed

him, but both issues were omitted. Even unto the end of your posting, you still

do not challenge the why's...not even an apology? some nice plot development

but glossed over the critical parts

Would have been a 2 page story if the author hadn't owned a Roget's Thesaurus.

Meh.

Erin invited Anita to move in with her and they were roommates until they eventually married. I lucked out and now I had two daughters to spoil and pamper

Erin and Anita began dating a set of brothers.

(I'm confused. The first lime make it like the girls married each other)

Good story.

Good read with a nice balance between narrative and dialogue. I did struggle with his emotions and how he approached setting up the steps toward the divorce. There wasn’t a relatable sequence I could believe. 4.3*

Not a bad story but, unless John is a saint, there was way too much empathy/sympathy shown towards the cheating shrew of a wife. It was one thing to treat her fairly but paying of her car and paying forward some expenses that is way over the line!!

This has the seeds of a good story, but the structural problems others noted, the pedantry, the lack of explanations all drug it down.

This is a soap opera story, totality unreal. A hallmark tv type finish. It could have been better written. It just didn’t work for me. 6 month affair turns into 3 years neither family had a clue. Really. He plays golf with the judge. Where did that come from. The judge should have recused himself . But you kept the BS going .

Too one sided. Too self-righteous. Too much of the "rock weathering the storm" in face of mild adversity. It read more like a fairy tale as we all knew in advance he would be vindicated and redeemed while he kept his head held high and facing forward. I have enjoyed some of your stories, but this one the husband was just too stalwart.

The description of the story was misleading..

@Anon - I can answer "Why do 90% of LW counselors think that their job is to "save" the marriage". Because first of all, they get paid more that way, both tactically (saving a marriage means TONS of billable hours from a given couple); and strategically (a counselor who has a higher rate of forcing people to stay married, will likely get more referrals from cheater-friendly man hating judges). Plus, it's also good for her "ego" - she sees it VERY simply, "I helped save a marriage - I'm a good person"; NOT "I helped a cheater trap a good spouse with my psychobabble, doing an unjust thing".

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@demander - well, not a big surprise from RAAC man hating cuck worshipper like you, but I'll actually try to genuinely explain the "No explanation for her behavior. The MC doesn't even seem curious. Which is curious" point. See, the great philosopher Elsa once said... well sang, "the past is in the past" in her program speech, "Let it Go". The main character doesn't need nor want to know the motivations of cheating backstabbing bitch. Knowing them **won't make a single difference to him and his future**. It won't affect how he thinks about himself or behaves, because **there is nothing bad enough he could have done to deserve being cheated on**.

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The only person who benefits from "knowing the reasons" is the cheater, because they use that to make themselves feel better. And so, not finding out the reason is actually even better for MC, as it prevents the cheater from getting more satisfaction at MC's expense.

SOOOO many words, a lot of unnecessary words, but you managed to leave out words in sentences that WERE needed. Incredibly LONG WINDED! 1*